Interview with Ludwig Berger

Created: Mon Sep 29 2025

Ludwig Berger is an artist, musician and educator with a focus on deep listening to the natural world. What caught my attention was his project Crying Glaciers which documents sounds that come from the what seems like a non-living natural object. His recordings would say otherwise.

Below is our conversation about his practice and his approach to connecting with nature and was conducted over a virtual meeting. Note: the interview is an automated transcription from Google's Recorder app. There has been minimal editing. If I include this in my thesis, I'l select quotes or tidy up the text.

Interview

Peter: Thank you. Awesome. Okay, so thank you for taking the time to meet with me. I really appreciate it. I know you're really, really busy. Um, I didn't real. Are you in Montreal?

Ludwig: No right now. I'm actually in France, my home area.

P: Yeah, okay, because I read on the Canadian architecture website that you're currently based in Montreal.

L: Yeah, I am also. Yeah, yeah, I'm a little bit in between right now, like in between Europe and and Montreal.

P: Okay, um, okay, that's great, because I was like, when you said, oh, you'll be available for 5 PM. I just assume you were in the same time zone, and then I was, like, oh wait, maybe you're not?

L: No, no, I am but sorry about the day. By the way, my neighbor was at the door and and she needed to talk a lot.

P: No worries. She needed an emotional support.

L: Exactly, exactly. Yeah, that's the village life, you know?

P: So, yeah, again. Thank you for meeting with me. I could tell you a little about, like, where I'm at with my thesis, and why I reached out to you. So I'm currently studying at HEAD-Genève in Geneva and in master media design. And I walk by the confluence where the two rivers meet on a daily basis and that's where my source of inspiration came from. And I just have this unwavering connection to it, and I wanted to examine this connection to see how me, personally, I can have a deeper relationship with it but then also open it up into a broader prospect. I was assigned a tutor who is very much a philosopher.

He gave me a lot of readings around environmental aesthetics and how to appreciate nature. And so, we've been talking about in relationship to Art because that's like an aesthetic experience, but a lot of philosophers don't consider nature to be part of that of an art aesthetic or art experience, and through a lot of the readings I came across, um, not a lot of people talking about sound, especially if I'm a philosophical standpoint.

Obviously, there's an acoustic ecology and people who study that, but more so in a poetic way or a philosophical way. So, that's where I ended up in, you know, I have, like, a visual portion of my thesis. And I also have, like, an audio portion that I talk about, and I've been interviewing practitioners especially like sound artists and how they relate to Nature.

And that's how I came across your work. From the Canadian architecture, but also through, like online, uh, stuff like that. Um, so I guess, like the first question I would have for you is, how did you get into field recordings? And why did you get into it?

L: Yeah, I mean, basically, I mean, I can show you. This is basically the reason why. So, this is where I grew up. So, this is, like, my yeah, I grew up in a very like, yeah, small village, surrounded by meadows and forests, and so on. And there was not a lot going on.

I somehow was like, really, from early on, interested in sounds, and I, I know, started recording with cassette tape. And then got a field recorder, and so, like, yeah, since now, 20 years, I've been doing field recordings. And then I got into, like electro acoustic music, which I studied.

So, like how to, yeah, to compose with recorded sounds. And there I was still, like, very much interested in like landscapes and an architecture also. And then I got into landscape architecture, where I teach for seven years. Yeah, and so I guess there was always for me this this interest in nature and and music, and as soon and for me, the link of like field recording was exactly in between the two.

P: And in your bio on your website, you focus on places and species, and maybe you deliberately also leave out humans as an area of interest. I'm curious about the positioning there in terms of places and species, and not so much to humans that are part of it.

L: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I would say that I, I still, I mean, I don't exclude humans, but I think for me sound is really a practice to kind of shift maybe our focus to to non-human life, which we usually don't have in in the everyday world, right? It's like, where it's all about, you know, human news and politics, and so on and interpersonal stuff, but we don't hold so much space in our culture for, like other realities, and for me sound is a wonderful way to kind of get into different perspectives and understand just different ways of inhabiting our environment, also. So I think I'm still interested in humans, but more like, through the perspective of non-humans you know , if that's possible.

P: Yeah, I really liked the video that you did, um, where you were talking. It's a collaboration with the Greek organization and, you were talking about how you were recording the bog and you're standing there you heard like your kneecaps, and to say that you were also part of this landscape. And like, you can't really avoid it, and the point that you said, that you know in field recording is, these are like, usually, unwanted sounds because they're trying to capture not like the person is recording, so I thought there was like an interesting relationship there.

It's like, how do you, yeah, remedy that, like, can you really separate the the person, especially the person who's recording from, like the environment, and like, because you are in a way interacting with it.

L: Exactly, yeah, and I think this is, like many, I think, or there may be different ways of field recording, and I think one way, like how many people do it. Also, the more classical ways to kind of pretend you're not there. And just like, you know, record from nowhere. You know, just kind of almost aerial view type thing, you know, that? And I'm interested, if, like, recordings are somehow grounded in in something. And that can be my own presence, you know.

So, like my body, how it is in the landscape, and so on, especially in the peat bog, that's like very plays a big role, because, you're literally changing the environment by being there. But also in even in the glacier piece, I also always have my own steps and so on present.

I mean there, I also listen to myself through the glacier and so on. But yeah, but it can also be like in the perspective of certain animals, for example. So I also love these, like, very, very close recordings of, I know, now I put out a new album, and there you kind of listen through the landscape through the perspective of like a cricket that I recorded super closely. So, to have this kind of insect perspective in the landscape. This is something I'm really interested in, so not like recording the whole atmosphere from from a distant point of view, but really have one particular body that the recording is linked to in the in the recording.

P: Yeah. And talking about the glacier, which is like on a scale of a project spans over years, like a decade. How do you stay motivated or interested, and like, how do you plan for such a long project? And I know, like, that's really important, especially when you work with ecology because you have to collect this data or record over a period of time to really see the change.

L: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it wasn't planned like that. In the beginning, it was just a course a university course, right, that we did with students, and then we realized. Oh, it's interesting actually to go back, and so on. And then the the interest came more like from the outsides.

So there were like journalists that contacted me that were interested in it. And then I started going back. And then it become became like almost automatically because of the outside interest. It became like an ongoing project, but I also like every time I go there, I learn something new about how to record the place.

So I kind of and then I really listen to the recordings, and I think I could have done that differently, and so on. It's, it's also like a refinement of my of my methods. So that was initially the thing. Why I kept on doing it, but now I really consider it like a long-term project of documentation of this kind of disappearance of the glacier.

And so for me this idea of like it was a bearing witness to the disappearance through sound is really important and kind of archiving the sounds of the glacier that are disappearing. Yeah, so for me, I like, I like to develop these also, like, longer lasting relationship with places.

So not just go to a place and do some recordings and leave again. But for me, it's much more like persons places, you know. So it's like, you develop kind of friendships. And so, like, you get to know people and then, I know, you want to see them again.

And then, you want to see them, you know, and then they just become like good friends and you just keep on visiting them. And so I have like a couple of these places. Now, the peat box is becoming one. Also, like, I've been there now I think three times, and now I'm already planning for next year to go again.

There's this valley in southern Switzerland and Tichino, where I've also now been like four times. So, yeah, I like this, and especially in sound because I mean, obviously, sound is so much more dynamic than the visual dimension of landscape. So, it keeps on changing all the time from year to year.

And so also in that regard, it just gets like deeper and deeper the the sounds that you can record in one place, and you also understand different layers of the place better the more often you go.

P: What is the personality of a glacier for you?

L: Yeah, I think it has. It has many different personalities in a way, as it has, like many different voices, that I can hear. So, I have a lot of respect from this personality. I mean, it's obviously very large. It has a very large scale, and so it's intimidating in some ways.

And I mean, just the sheer scale of it is very intimidating, but also the the sounds that you can hear. I mean, when I'm standing on it, and sometimes they're like these super deep, you know, and then you realize you're really standing on something that is moving, and you're like this small, and you could just like fall down a crevice or whatever.

So, there's this whole thing of like fear and respect that I have to towards this glacier person, if you will. But yeah, there are also like in these little air bubble sounds. They're all so funny and quirky, and yeah, they make me laugh sometimes, you know.

And there's a tenderness even to these, like, yeah, very delicate ice sounds. And it also has something lamenting. Yeah, so it's really a mix of this. Yeah, very, how do you say fearsome, like, fear inducing, and funny and sad, and many, many things at the same time.

P: Yeah, I think that's the the feeling I got as well when I listen to some of the recordings because it has like a gargling feel to it, but it has like this deep, like, Earth sound, and like, yeah, there's like these micro tones that, like, bubble up, and it's interesting to mediate between like these, like more positive emotions of like being, like, funny, but then also to know that you're recording these to like document, because maybe there won't be like glaciers in the future.

Yeah, and when you say like, it kind of gives a voice to these, like entities, and yeah, like, part of my research is also to see, like, as part of appreciation how far we can go and, part of the other spectrum, is like to have legal entities and a legal personhood.

And I'm wondering if you know, I thought it's actually, really, really cool, that, like the project took off because of outside forces and journalists were interested in this, and I'm wondering if you know if there's like any government bodies that are also interested in the work that you're doing?

L: Yeah, I mean there are. There are some politicians that also got in touch with me from the green party of Switzerland that feel connected to this to this project. And yeah, and I think this is also one reason why I do it is because I feel like it gives kind of an aesthetic argument for a political discussion in a way.

So, like this idea of personhood can seem like very abstract, but if you listen to these sounds and like it really speaks from this idea right of the place for being not, not like a human person, but having this agency and character and so on.

So, I think, in a way it's also like my form of of activism to to, yeah, to advocate for this idea, but just through through sounds. Yeah.

P: Which is nice. And going into some of your teaching, I think you do like deep listening exercises with students and people who are interested in doing workshops. How do you get people to reconnect with the act of listening?

L: Yeah, so I think it's it's a mix. On the one hand, it it starts with body exercises, so I think the first thing is to really arrive in your own body, right? Something I think that is also, not so much in our culture. And I started doing that in university and you know, students were kind of surprised and also thankful that we, you know, that we kind of stop pretending that we don't have a body, which is like, how university is because we just pretend that we just perceive the world, you know, through our brain, but not like through our senses, and our body doesn't really play a role.

So, like, I start with very simple exercise, you know, like, shaking up, like waking up the body and doing some movement exercises, and it changes the way you perceive them. So, that's a very important part, and breathing exercises and things like this, relaxation. And then, yeah, there are just different kind of prompts or guided meditation kind of ways of listening or also improvisation.

Composition is also kind of part of deep listening. So also, field recording can be a part of people listening, so it's like very wide practice with a mix of yeah, just tuning your body, relaxing, connecting with your own kind of history listening, like, yeah, connecting with yourself with your inner world also, your memories of sounds. Imagine sounds and so on. And also dissolving this kind of boundary that we have between our inside world and outside world, which is, I think, one thing that listening can really do is to to create a resonance between your own perception and your environments.

P: Has a student or participant ever taught you anything in a workshop or class?

L: Yeah, I mean always. I think the the wonderful thing about, you know, like doing these exercises together is that you realize that everyone listens differently. And it's not necessary, even something that you have to talk about necessarily, like, just that by the fact that other people are in the room. You also listen differently, right? So yeah, it's hard for me now to think about one concrete thing, but it's definitely especially the deep listening courses it's not so much about teaching, but it's more like facilitating an environment where we can all listen together. And I also take part in the exercises and in many of the exercises. And so it is shared experience.

P: Do you feel like as a culture we're very much attuned to our visual senses, and we tend to lose the ability to be attuned to the acoustic or sonic world?

L: Yeah, I mean. I think so, as at least, like, in a conscious way. I think we don't talk about it too much. But I mean, I there's also one exercise I always like to do with students, which is, you know, the sound of of hot water versus cold water?

And do you know and do you think you could distinguish the sound of hot water or cold water.

P: Maybe I'm assuming hot would be more like pitchy, or like, faster in some way just because it's hot.

L: Yeah, yeah, it would be like, they move faster.

P: Yeah cold, would be like to be like a deeper sound.

L: But if I would play the example, you would know it immediately. Like, at 90% of people or more know immediately if the water just from sound is hot or cold, and I really love this example because it shows us that we do actually listen, of course, all the time. And we have like a knowledge of listening. It's just that we don't necessarily have the language or the practice of talking about it, the discourses, and so on. In the in the general public, maybe? But I think it is there as a as an experience.

And I, for example, one thing I also always like to ask in the courses in the beginning is what, what has shaped your listening, you know? Like, what kind of place or experience or whatever practices has shaped your listening. And there, you also realize that everyone has a relationship to listening. It's just kind of yeah, it's mostly in the in the subconscious, and so I think it doesn't take much to activate it and make conscious.

P: Yeah, yeah, it's interesting that you say we don't necessarily maybe have the language to talk about it, but we have a lot of discourses and studies for like music, and I feel like that field has been very developed.

So, how would you distinguish the differences between, like, sound art and music?

L: That's a tough one. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, obviously it's like, it's a fluid transition, right? So there is music can be, can be sound art. But I think, yeah, I'm always having a hard time with these, like hard definitions, because for me, it doesn't play so much a role of, you know, if it's music or not music, or I don't really care about that. Yeah, I would say, probably in sound art like the the concept plays a larger role.

And music probably has more of, you know, like, a defined structure in in time. Whereas sound art can also be much more non-linear or experienced in a spatial way, or just in the mental way. But yeah, if you if you have music albums that are having like a very strong concept or process behind, they can also be considered sound art, so I think it's just a question of framing.

P: Going back to the field recording, you said that whenever you go back to the glaciers, you always learn something new about the practice, and you refine it. And even though I've only literally started to do field recordings like this year, and even just going through the process myself.

I'm, like, yeah, I'm picking up, like, oh, do I record myself in this? Do I want to have this sound in there? How do I actually want to cut off? What do I choose to frame. Yeah, in actual recording, I just feel like and also the fact that I have to, stay still and be mindful about what's going on just gives me a lot of time to reflect. And I find even standing still for five minutes, it's like an eternity, which is wild. And I'm just wondering for you, it's like, when you first started your field recording where you are now, how has it evolved since then?

L: Yeah, I mean, if I, if I go back to my first recordings, I really, I think they were very short.

They were also like, just like, yeah, one or two minutes. Yeah, I remember, like my first, my first kind of soundscape piece that I did it was, like, all the recordings were like max two minutes. And I think if I have like a good spot, I tend to record more like half an hour.

Or per state. Like, if it's an interesting thing, or if it's not constant if it's variable? And now, I also started to really just use drop rigs. So to, you know, like, a little small recorders that I can just leave on recording overnight. You know, just leave them in a tree or something, and then record the morning dawn, so I don't have to wake up early.

But you also get like very different type of sounds if you're completely absent, so I'm also interested more in that now. You know, like, if so, now, for example, also in this peat bog area. In England, I try to observe where there are a lot of birds during the day, and then I just left a recorder there and then left its recording for a full day and then go back to the recording. And I mean this, this way, you really get recordings that you wouldn't get otherwise, so I think that's maybe one thing that I changed the most for me is this kind of awareness for like long-term recording how much we can change.

And then also what changed over time is this thing that I talked about in the beginning of like working with my own presence. I think in the beginning was more like I was more as an accident part of the recording, you know, like breathing or moving or whatever?

And so now I yeah, if yeah in some cases I try to play with my presence also. And yeah, there's also this just intuition that developed for me over time where to record, when to record, when it's worth, you know, really recording longer times and when it's not worth it. So I think I decide very quickly if I keep on recording in one place or if I move to the next.

So, I tend to be like very passed in the beginning, like by choosing the place where I record, but then be very slow as soon as I found a good place to record and then be very patient. And also record the same place from different perspectives or with different mics and so on.

And then also for me, one thing is that is also developing is that kind of while I'm recording the piece is also already forming. In my mind, you know, by the experience I have on site or by the sounds that I'm recording. So, while I'm recording, I understand what the piece could be about or how it could be structured.

And then I go more and more in into that, direction while recording. So I also have really this idea of kind of composing while recording or recording as an act of composition already. You know, like by the placement of your mics or the the small movements you do with the mics you can also, you know, already create a panning, or I really like to work things like that.

P: So you also work like, you're also kind of like performing on the site by working with the microphones moving around? Yeah, thinking about how you can translate it into an audio experience when you get back to your studio.

L: Yeah.

P: Very nice, and I had something else that I wanted to ask. Yeah, I think, I guess, like what do you obviously there's like an advocacy for nature and trying to connect with nature. But is there anything else that you want people to take away from your recordings?

L: I would need to think about because I think it's, it's maybe a little bit different for each project.

Yeah, but I mean, but, or maybe I could differentiate a little bit more this kind of relationship. So for me, empathy is kind of an important thing like to develop empathy towards other beings in our environment. And and kind of also an intimacy, you know, like, so that's why I also really like this hyper close way of recording because it's really this. Yeah, you know, if you suddenly hear a bird or an insect like super close, there's just something that happens right in this intimate connection that can be established. But also, I'm really interested in this idea of unlearning through listening, so. With these recordings that I have, for example, of the singing tree or the photosynthesis underwater, where you have like these crazy beats.

So moments where you kind of, ot kind of destabilizes your idea that you have of plants. You know what a plant is, or what an insect is? So, yeah, this moment of kind of wonder and surprise, and I mean, it seems very something very obvious, but I, yeah, that's really what interests me.

While I'm recording, you know, when I'm like, oh my God, this sounds like that, you know, and this is for me already a lot of that happens. This is what a glacier sounds like. Yeah, and then of course there are also other things, like, for example, in this in this new work that I did this year for Venice biennale, it was Ecotonalities where it was about kind of the spaces in between human infrastructure and yeah, lakes, meadows, forests, and so on. I just tried to to make, on the one hand, the infrastructure really audible,with all the electromagnetic sounds and the resonances of machines and some of the inaudible sounds making them audible. But doing also the same for the the insects or bats or other birds that are around and kind of bringing them on the same level and then being able to analyze this relationship, which sometimes can be that they're much more similar that that we think you know. So, for example, I recorded like this swarm of starlings, like, close to a satellite park and then I had the signals of like the the radio signals of the satellites kind of mixed with the with the sounds of the starlings that also sound like just data transmission,

Yeah, on the one hand you understand that, you know, this hierarchy of human tech superior technology and animal life doesn't really exist because they just have their different technologies, or you know, ways of communicating. But, on the other hand, it also talks about how little space in the end animals have to communicate.

So, that they rely on sound for their communication and that we take away that space of for them that communicate. So, in bioacoustics, they talk about this idea of sound as a resource because animals need it, it's like food, they needed to survive. They need sound to survive, and we're taking away by making noise. And therefore, don't leave sound space for them. So, this is, for example, one of the things I like to transmit in in in my work. As to also rethink about our relationship or impact.

P: Yeah, it's a good point, because in my research, I've come across a podcast oologies with Ali Ward. She interviewed an acoustic ecologist in Australia and one of the questions she had, and she was wondering it's, like, oh, it's like the world getting louder, or is the world getting quieter, and because she was thinking, oh, maybe it's getting louder because of all like the human noise that we make, and he ended up saying, actually, like the world's getting quieter because of like less species and the human development is taking over even though there is noise from us, it's just that before, there was a lot more noise from animals that you would hear. And now then, you just don't hear them as much.

L: That's a good point. Yeah, I never thought about that. Yeah. Ah, that's yeah, it's really depressing. Yeah, and I think when you, when you, when you hear people talking about, like, how landscapes sounded like 150 years ago, it was like, now, it got super silent actually compared to that in terms of birds, and so on.

P: I don't have any other questions. I think this is great. I don't want to take up too much of your time, uh, but if you have any questions for me, I'm more than does the open conversation. So, if you want to ask anything, I'm here.

L: Okay. Yeah, so I'm curious just about your your own practice. So you say, you said you're recording two rivers that flow together, did I understand that correctly.

P: Okay, yeah, in Geneva, there's the Rhone River and then also the Arve river and then past the the bridge, which is like the where you can view like bird's eye view of the two rivers going west of the bridge, the the rivers merge. And it just becomes the Rhone river, so the room takes over the Arve. And, okay, Geneva, the city they need to do a better job of like this area where you can stand, like, closer to the rivers.

It's not landscaped in any way. There's trees covering everything, so I feel like just from an urban planning or landscaping perspective, there's like an opportunity there. But I think for me, yeah, I'm really interested in using that spot and maybe connecting with, because there's always people coming to that spot to look at it.

And I can just imagine them being really disappointed because it's, it's not anything spectacular. The best of you is actually from the. bridge, and it takes even longer. It's like to get up there anyways. I think the whole point for me is to find ways to reconnect with nature and the one quote that I open up with my thesis is from Ronald Hepburn.

Who is a Scottish philosopher in environmental aesthetics, and he wrote a paper in 1966, which is like one of the seminal papers within this field, and in it, he says, "we ourselves become foreign to our everyday life". And I just thought that was so poetic, because how can we be foreign to something that is so like ingrained in us?

Yeah, like, for me, like going by the the two rivers the first time I went there. Yeah, it's beautiful. Like, it's in one River, the Rhone is super clear, and you can see straight through. You can see the fish in the summer. On the other side, the Arve has all the silt, and you can still see the glacier sediment in it and there's just like a beautiful contrast between the two. And then now, because, like I'm this, is my second year in the Masters I'm integrated into the city more, and it's become part of my everyday life. And if the honeymoon phase has disappeared. So, yeah, for me, it's like, yeah, I would like to find ways to reconnect with this. It's almost like a love letter to the place I because I'm not from Geneva or from Switzerland, I will be going back to Canada afterwards. So, in a way, this is like a love letter to the rivers, and also to like, leave away for maybe local people who also take the rivers for granted, a way for them to reconnect with it.

L: Yeah, yeah, that's that's really nice. It's beautiful.

P: Thank you.

L: Yeah, it's true that rivers are super special in in Switzerland. I mean, for me also, like one of the best reasons of living in Zurich was also the the river. I actually preferred it to the lake.

P: Yeah, same. Yeah, the river here is better than the the lake for me.

L: Yeah, it's nice. And where are you from in Canada.

P: Toronto.

L: Oh yeah, nice, okay.

P: But if I knew you were in Montreal, I was in Montreal during the summer because I went back because I've been trying to meet everyone that I interview in person. And yeah, like, obviously, you can't do that always, but I just feel like you lose something when it's always through the screen. But yeah, if you were in Montreal, I would have tried to meet up with you.

L: Well, next time, let me know when you do. Well, I don't know how long, how much longer I'll be there.

P: Were you there primarily for the the work with the Canadian Architecture Center?

L: No, my partner's from there. So, I moved there kind of moved there two years ago, but although I'm most of the time still in Europe but like I'm half based there now.

Yeah, and planning to go back to Europe, actually.

P: Okay, so it was a good run.

L: But yeah, yeah, no, but I mean, I love Montreal. I have a great time there.

P: Minus the winters.

L: Actually, I like the winter, it's just like a little long, so I always go like back to Europe in around February, March. Actually, now, I want to do a piece about, like, a sound piece about the winter in Montreal.

P: You should, yeah, I just feel like it's obviously it's a special season for for Canada, but I feel like, especially Montreal, they yeah. They have it the worst as a city.

L: Really, is it? Is it different in Toronto?

P: Yeah, we don't get as much snow as Montreal as not as cold, although it's still like cold and snowy, but Montreal is like the next level.

L: Oh, really. Okay, I wasn't aware of that. Okay, no, no. And how much longer are you staying now?

P: I graduate end of June?

L: Okay, yeah, nice.

P: Yeah, I'll be sad to be leaving, but um, yeah, Geneva will always hold a special place in my heart, and hopefully I'll be able to come back to visit. But yeah, I've learned so much, so I'm really excited to to go back to Canada and like, integrate what I've learned into my practice.

L: Really nice, yeah, and have you been to the Archipel festival also?

P: No, I haven't. No.

L: Because that's a really cool sound art festival. And actually, I think it's always happening in April, so you, you might catch the next one.

P: Okay, yes, I'm gonna put it on my calendar to look for it.

L: Yeah, it's really good, and some great works.

P: Awesome. So what I'm going to do next is, I've been transcribing everything, and then I've been documenting my thesis online as well, so I'll share the transcription with you there and then you can read through if there's anything that you don't want to include, you can just let me know. And then I'll remove it.

L: You can include anything I don't care.

P: Well, you say that, now and then, you read it. And maybe you're, like, okay, maybe I didn't want to say that, I don't know. Yeah, and then I will also send you a PDF of my final thesis.

L: Okay, good. Yeah, looking forward, nice.

P: No obligation to read it, but I just thought if you wanted to see, like how your words were integrated.

L: Yeah, and who are the other people you interviewed actually.

P: Yes, I've interviewed Flavien Gillié, he's a Brussels based. Well, I mean, he's from France, but he's in Brussels now, and he's a sound artist. He's been doing it for, like 25 years, and he's more so interested in documenting the urban landscape and city sounds. So he's part of a group in Brussels where they're doing like a sound map of the city. That's his primary practice.

And then, I've interviewed someone from Switzerland. His name is Jonas Fasching, and he did his bachelor's in audio production, so nothing related to like more on the Art and Design side, but he did his Bachelor thesis on the sound map, the soundscapes of Berlin. And he also does like field recordings of like rivers. So, and I found him because he did a YouTube video, he has a YouTube channel of how to build a hydrophone. Because part of my whole research is also to build the tools that I'll be working with. So I thought that would be a cool exercise for me to do, so I will also be building a hydrophone.

I'll be interviewing someone from Geneva, Wednesday. His name is Didier Bruchon, who's also a sound artist. I think he's also been doing it longer than everyone because I think he was born in the 60s. So I'll know more about him on Wednesday.

Ad then I reached out to Robertina [Šebjanič], I can't pronounce her last name. She's from Slovenia. And she has a project called CoSonic, I think. 1662 [1884] kilometer squared, which is about a river within one of the cities there, and she's going to be at Kikk Festival.

And the program director here organized a trip to go, so I reached out to her and she said, yeah, she's more than welcome to to meet with me, so that's great. Yeah, so, yeah.

L: Interesting. Yeah, it's a good. Good group of people.

P: Yeah, yeah, and I was like, you would be great because you're dealing with, like a wide range of things, but I was really interested in like the glacier aspect because you're starting at the starting point of a river. So I thought that was a good way to connect.

L: Okay, well, I'm looking forward to see what comes out of it.

P: Yeah, me too.

L: Good luck with that!

P: Thank you so much! Thank you so much for your time. Take care, bye!

L: Bye bye!